@spiderbat87: Because they're part of War. When you're in a war, you can't be deemed as "innocent" regardless of whether you're fighting for good or bad. IMHO.

As for the second, that's because there is no SHIELD as of now and she has the most prominent people from it. But SHIELD is disbanded, the person who has the equivalent position is Rogers.

@spiderbat87: Things aren't exactly like that with Scarlet Witch. She's been shunned by her former husband, has to live with the knowledge of the terrible things she's done and is trying to find her place in the world. Oh and she's having bad dreams about the Phoenix coming to destroy the Earth. All it's done so far is destroy planets (perhaps to allow the growth of new ones as Morpheus said earlier but destroying a planet is always wrong in my understanding). And the fact is that this is bigger than the X-Men and mutants. They're training a teenage girl to take on one of the most powerful cosmic entities in the universe on the off chance that the mutant population will see a sudden spike. Besides the Phoenix poses a more prominent threat than Scarlet Witch atm.

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87: Because they're part of War. When you're in a war, you can't be deemed as "innocent" regardless of whether you're fighting for good or bad. IMHO.

As for the second, that's because there is no SHIELD as of now and she has the most prominent people from it. But SHIELD is disbanded, the person who has the equivalent position is Rogers.

Quake fully states she is the director of SHIELD, obviously she is using that term as a place holder till the new org is set up so she is is the equivalent not Cap

So soldiers are not innocent or worthy of protection? I'm a solider and I don't think thats right at all

@Morpheus_: I think he's joking.

@Lvenger said:

@spiderbat87: Things aren't exactly like that with Scarlet Witch. She's been shunned by her former husband, has to live with the knowledge of the terrible things she's done and is trying to find her place in the world. Oh and she's having bad dreams about the Phoenix coming to destroy the Earth. All it's done so far is destroy planets (perhaps to allow the growth of new ones as Morpheus said earlier but destroying a planet is always wrong in my understanding). And the fact is that this is bigger than the X-Men and mutants. They're training a teenage girl to take on one of the most powerful cosmic entities in the universe on the off chance that the mutant population will see a sudden spike. Besides the Phoenix poses a more prominent threat than Scarlet Witch atm.

Galactus does the same thing and he is not perceived as evil but a force of nature.

@spiderbat87: And when Galactus comes to consume the Earth, every superhero on the planet unites to stop him, not bicker over who will be his next herald when he's only interested in consuming the planet. This is how it is in Avengers vs X-Men. The X-Men are banking on the slim possibility the PF will restart the mutant race and ignoring the obvious sign that the Phoenix Force is well known for blowing up planets and causing the death of one of their teammates. And yes the PF is not evil but like Galactus it is a threat to the world that has to be stopped.

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87: Because they're part of War. When you're in a war, you can't be deemed as "innocent" regardless of whether you're fighting for good or bad. IMHO.

As for the second, that's because there is no SHIELD as of now and she has the most prominent people from it. But SHIELD is disbanded, the person who has the equivalent position is Rogers.

Quake fully states she is the director of SHIELD, obviously she is using that term as a place holder till the new org is set up so she is is the equivalent not Cap

So soldiers are not innocent or worthy of protection? I'm a solider and I don't think thats right at all

Not really, because Cap is the leader of the organization that was once SHIELD, while Quake is simply the leader of a new organization which she calls SHIELD, if that makes sense.

Of course they're worthy of protection, which Cap would do, since he's protecting everyone. Its just when referring to a war, innocent people are those not involved in the actual warfare. Since everyone in Utopia is involved in the war, then they're not innocent.

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87: Because they're part of War. When you're in a war, you can't be deemed as "innocent" regardless of whether you're fighting for good or bad. IMHO.

As for the second, that's because there is no SHIELD as of now and she has the most prominent people from it. But SHIELD is disbanded, the person who has the equivalent position is Rogers.

Quake fully states she is the director of SHIELD, obviously she is using that term as a place holder till the new org is set up so she is is the equivalent not Cap

So soldiers are not innocent or worthy of protection? I'm a solider and I don't think thats right at all

Not really, because Cap is the leader of the organization that was once SHIELD, while Quake is simply the leader of a new organization which she calls SHIELD, if that makes sense.

Of course they're worthy of protection, which Cap would do, since he's protecting everyone. Its just when referring to a war, innocent people are those not involved in the actual warfare. Since everyone in Utopia is involved in the war, then they're not innocent.

Quake is the leader of that org not Cap, he was even there when she was saying this as she sped of in her flying car. Cap maybe incharge of national security but he's not incharge of SHIELD.

What has Utopia done that is remotely war like?

@spiderbat87: He's in charge of what Norman was in charge of, which used to be SHIELD. That's what I've gathered.

Quake is in charge of the Howling Commandos and the rest of Fury's crew, they're all there at the end of Secret Warriors.

Fought the Avengers?

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp: So Cap things the best way to go about this is to invade Utopia, there home, and demand that they give over Hope because the Avengers are so much better equipped deal with it? Do you not see how completely hypocritical that is when not so long ago the roles where reversed when the X-Men wanted to take out the Scarlet Witch and the Avengers didn't? Anyway this is just a bullsh!t event for cheap thrills and Avengers fanwankery

QFT

@Lvenger said:

@spiderbat87: They're training a teenage girl to take on one of the most powerful cosmic entities in the universe on the off chance that the mutant population will see a sudden spike.

You forgot that Hope already activated several new mutants?

@Kairan1979: Only a few. I'm talking large scale repopulation which she hasn't shown to be capable of so far, not just a few new 'Lights' as I believe they're called.

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87: He's in charge of what Norman was in charge of, which used to be SHIELD. That's what I've gathered.

Quake is in charge of the Howling Commandos and the rest of Fury's crew, they're all there at the end of Secret Warriors.

Fought the Avengers?

Why does she say she's the Director of SHIELD then? That's not warlike, any team would do the same when prevocted.

Anyway how long after this monstrosity of an even is finished do you think the Ultron War will start? (I think that's the next even at least)

@spiderbat87:

Because she's calling the team she has"SHIELD", since SHIELD was disbanded.

I see where you're coming from.

Hopefully never.

How Steve Rogers is Wrong:

1) Demanded the handover of a girl without any charges being leveled. In other words: no cause or due process

2) Came onto sovereign territory with an armed party. Trespassing without a warrant

Had he truly wanted to avoid conflict, he would have first sought to approach Cyclops as an individual, one leader to another, and not with an army of Avengers at his back. He would also have secured the blessings of the UN, which would have negated the legal issues associated with trespassing on Utopia.

Cap displays an attitude of "we go where we want, when we want, and do what we want. Do what we say, get out of the way, or face the consequences."

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87:

Because she's calling the team she has"SHIELD", since SHIELD was disbanded.

I see where you're coming from.

Hopefully never.

But thats not what shes doing, Cap, SHIELD agents, and Dum Dum all called her Director and acted under her she also had helicopters and a giant airbase with the SHIELD emblem all over it.

@Lvenger said:

@Kairan1979: Only a few. I'm talking large scale repopulation which she hasn't shown to be capable of so far, not just a few new 'Lights' as I believe they're called.

I know. A few Lights are better than nothing, they give us a hope (no pun intended) for more.

Let's not forget Beast tried everything to undo the damage done by Scarlet Witch, allied with the worst of the worst, and nothing came out of it.

@spiderbat87: Fair enough, then I may be wrong.

How Steve Rogers is Right.

1) Demanded the handover of a girl without any charges being leveled. In other words: no cause or due process 

2) Came onto sovereign territory with an armed party. Trespassing without a warrant 

Utopia ISN'T a sovereign territory nor is it it's own country, it's on American soil, he doesn't need a warrant to go there.

Had he truly wanted to avoid conflict, he would have first sought to approach Cyclops as an individual, one leader to another, and not with an army of Avengers at his back. He would also have secured the blessings of the UN, which would have negated the legal issues associated with trespassing on Utopia.

Cap displays an attitude of "we go where we want, when we want, and do what we want. Do what we say, get out of the way, or face the consequences."  

Though I haven't read the issue (so correct me if I'm wrong, please), but from how Cyclops was speaking in the preview of the first issue (and from what I have read concerning the plot) about using Hope to control the Phoenix Force and revive the Mutant population, that already sounds like a bad idea from the start. Scott believing that he can control an uncontrollable force of nature and use it for his own plans sounds more like something Doctor Doom or Magneto would do, not to mention the risks he's placing not only what's left of the Mutant population but the rest of humanity as a whole and what dangers he could unleash upon realizing that he can't control something so powerful. Cap coming in with the Avengers, wanting to take Hope into custody and find a way to stop the Phoenix Force sounds more like he logical choice in the matter, Steve knows that this is something too powerful for anyone to control and that the risks of if possibly destroying the planet, to not mention the whole galaxy, are too high.
 
From everything I've seen/read, Captain America seems to be in the right on this issue.

I see it now. Cause Logan tried to kill Hope, Scott is gonna use this as a moment to say that was the Avengers plan along: To kill the host of the Phoenix. It's so predictable it's not funny. God, this event is gonna destroy years of characterization for a Michael Bay type event.

That said, there is no one in the right. All are wrong. Rogers's plan falls on that Hope being taken off world is gonna redirect the Phoenix. So you pick the lesser of two evils and doom other worlds just to save Earth? What happens if Phoenix still goes to Earth? Hope is not there to be the host, and Earth gets burnt away to be reborn again. After all, the Phoenix's purpose is to Burn away what doesn't work and instill the seeds of rebirth. It's ambivalent aka not good nor evil. He's hoping that Phoenix will follow Hope like a magnet. That's a gamble in it's own right. Plus where is gonna send her exactly? Negative Zone? Another world to doom those people? Toss her into the abyss of Space and hope for the best?

Scott's problem is not the Phoenix destroying Earth in it's own force, but what happens after Hope becomes Phoenix. She's an emotionally damaged girl who unlike Jean doesn't have control of her emotions. Remember, it took Mastermind to turn Phoenix in a perfect copy of Jean, mind and all, (It's really continuity, people. Jean was in a cocoon healing from the shuttle incident that the Phoenix put her there. /jean-grey/29-3552/ ) into Dark Phoenix.

Dark Phoenix is a human with godlike power. So the gamble is once Hope is Phoenix, your praying that she can control it and her emotions. Cause she very well could repeat DP from Iron Age and burn away the Universe.

Both options suck. God, Marvel needs a new creative department if this is what they want to give us for an event.

@TheStegman: A police officer cannot, under current law, demand that you enter his/her custody without a warrant. You are welcome to do so voluntarily, but absent a charge, you cannot be held against your will. Utopia is NOT US territory. If you do not believe me, please feel free to consult Marvel's WIKI http://marvel.wikia.com/Utopia_(X-Men_Base) I quote: Seeing no other option, Cyclops decided to move the mutant population (then stationed in the Marin Headlands at Graymalkin Industries) to this island, and off U.S. soil to avoid further persecution by the government, and Norman Osborn and his H.A.M.M.E.R. in particular. I'm not claiming Cyclops' actions are completely right, but he is essentially leading a sovereign island nation-state and Captain America was there illegally.

@The Stegman: Utopia is not on American soil it's separate like a reservation, it was the reason they created it in the first place

@lykopis said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Stegman: Utopia is not on American soil it's separate like a reservation, it was the reason they created it in the first place

So then --- what is Hope's excuse for going into San Fran and beating up the bad guys? And for Cyclops and the X-Men to go into San Francisco whenever they feel like it? At least when retrieving her? Cyclops admitted he was aware that Hope was heading over to the US for the past week prior to this fight. So.....maybe Captain had the right to demand all their incarceration.....

gah --- its all stupid. I just want this over with ---- how long is it going to take?

-_-

San Fran and Utopia have a good working relationship, the Xtinction Team and Dazzlers street team protect the city and the mayor of San Fran send them food and supplies

Simple. Cap isn't wrong. You might argue that he could have tried talking more but in the end he isn't wrong.

- Both sides are being written like complete fools, that is the only way you can make this joke of an event happen based on the lead up. You have to accept that everyone in leadership in Marvel has been taking daily doses of idiot pills since Civil War.

- If a cosmic level threat is heading towards your planet the last thing you can afford to do is instigate and force a battle between the two powerhouse organizations. Cap should have called Cyclops and his brain trust over to negotiate how to together protect both Earth and Hope. With the resources the two sides have this could be done in a multitude of ways and not leave either side feeling like they were being taken for granted.

- As for the Avengers in space, WTF are they going to do to the Phoenix? Have War Machine shoot it? Beast read to it? It has destroyed planets on its way over and your going to throw a handful of Avengers who are magically going to stop it in its tracks?

- The whole thing is forced, trying to figure out how it makes sense will only give you a migrane.

@WarMachineMarkV said:

- Both sides are being written like complete fools, that is the only way you can make this joke of an event happen based on the lead up. You have to accept that everyone in leadership in Marvel has been taking daily doses of idiot pills since Civil War.

- If a cosmic level threat is heading towards your planet the last thing you can afford to do is instigate and force a battle between the two powerhouse organizations. Cap should have called Cyclops and his brain trust over to negotiate how to together protect both Earth and Hope. With the resources the two sides have this could be done in a multitude of ways and not leave either side feeling like they were being taken for granted.

- As for the Avengers in space, WTF are they going to do to the Phoenix? Have War Machine shoot it? Beast read to it? It has destroyed planets on its way over and your going to throw a handful of Avengers who are magically going to stop it in its tracks?

- The whole thing is forced, trying to figure out how it makes sense will only give you a migrane.

Agreed for the most part.

Cyclops is a douche lol.

@Gambit1024: Again, how does one protect a teenage girl, let alone humanity, against the Phoenix? If Steve Rogers was serious, Reed Richards would have been called to run tests on Hope. The logic of Captain America's argument is shoddy.

@The Stegman: How do you protect a planet, let alone a person, from the Phoenix?

all of this could have been avoided if Bishop was successful in his endeavor to kill baby Hope.

Cable showed Cyclops the future where the Avengers took out Hope and the world was wiped out. Emma read Rogers mind and knew he wasn't leaving without a fight. Cyclops is trying to train Hope and doing what he thinks is best. Rogers is just going on the word of a hypocrite and traitor. I know he's doing what he thinks is for the best, but I'm siding with X-Men.

Hey Cyclops   Cap says

@Wonderbrezzy said:

Hey Cyclops Cap says

@Kairan1979 said:

@Lvenger said:

@Kairan1979: Only a few. I'm talking large scale repopulation which she hasn't shown to be capable of so far, not just a few new 'Lights' as I believe they're called.

I know. A few Lights are better than nothing, they give us a hope (no pun intended) for more.

Let's not forget Beast tried everything to undo the damage done by Scarlet Witch, allied with the worst of the worst, and nothing came out of it.

Yes I suppose a few new mutants are better than none. And at least Scarlet Witch is attempting to make up for her past mistakes which is why she'll play a part in Avengers vs X-Men. That's all anyone can do after doing something wrong, no matter how great the mistake is and should apply to everyone. Everyone needs a second chance to make things right.

@Wonderbrezzy said:

Hey Cyclops Cap says

@Mercy_ said:

@TheGreyOutcastX

@Wonderbrezzy said:

Hey Cyclops Cap says

Thank you for saving me the trouble

My pleasure. :D

I don't understand why there is any confusion here? The PF is on the way --- its eating planets along the way -- time is of the essence -- Cyclops thinks that billions of people are equal to his 200 (which by the way --- according to both him AND Hope they are still sworn to protect) and Captain America is the bad guy?

Wuh?

I am an X-Man fan --- not too much on the Avengers. And to me, Captain America didn't show up to Utopia with an "army". Cyclops dealt the first shot -- then the Avengers came raining down. First we see Hope all "I can take care of myself" and off she tears off to San Francisco to beat up some baddies bloody and pulpy (against Cyclops' wishes) and Cyclops' still thinks she can handle the PF? That kid who suddenly is huddling on the rock, terrified --- Emma taking her away to "protect" her?

Come on now. I hate how Cyclops is being written - and yes - there is a nasty plot device that going to bite all us fans in the @ss that will set CV ablaze with fury --- but to argue that Cyclops is within rights to take this upon his shoulders when behaving isolationist is a little much.

When you got Magneto saying "take it easy" - that's a pretty big warning sign. To me anyway. Just my two pence.

@VampireSelektor: That's not the argument here. Even if Reed Richards was involved (which he won't be because this is all just bad writing), the PF would still destroy everything. At least Steve's trying to act. What is he supposed to do? Just sit and wait for it?

Besides, having Reed run tests on her still requires Cyclops's cooperation, so either way, it wouldn't have made a difference.

@Gambit1024: Even though I'm not reading the event, a problem I have with it is that there's no common sense being shown by the heroes. If Galactus showed up, no one would bicker over who would be his next herald. Instead they would unite to find a way to stop him from consuming the Earth. That's how it should be for all earth destroying threats. And Cyclops seems to have overolooked the fact that the PF drove Jean Grey mad and made her destroy planets before. Why does he think Hope can handle the PF better than one of the most powerful telepathic and telekinetic mutant?

Nice way to alienate the X-Men fans, idiots.

I'm an equal fan of the X-men and the Avengers but honestly, how does Scott feel after Hope beat down her fellow teammates, nearly killed Spider-man and Logan, and ran away from Utopia AFTER all the warnings Scott's given. I'm hoping Scott comes to his sense and joins Cap to save Earth and potentially help the Mutant race.

Really, I've never liked the character of Hope and she is extremely irritating.

@Deranged Midget: From the pages shown of future Avengers vs X-men issues, they'll still be fighting for a while longer. Why would they do that? Surely the best thing to do is to join forces to find Hope and stop the PF, not beat each other senseless. Presumably, the Avengers and X-Men will race to find Hope, battling each other in the course of this.

@Lvenger said:

@Gambit1024: Even though I'm not reading the event, a problem I have with it is that there's no common sense being shown by the heroes. If Galactus showed up, no one would bicker over who would be his next herald. Instead they would unite to find a way to stop him from consuming the Earth. That's how it should be for all earth destroying threats. And Cyclops seems to have overolooked the fact that the PF drove Jean Grey mad and made her destroy planets before. Why does he think Hope can handle the PF better than one of the most powerful telepathic and telekinetic mutant?

Because this is bad writing! lmao.

Seriously, if this were Galactus, the whole thing would've been handled in a few panels. Even if he were to say something like "Hey, mutants. I could restore your powers, but I might not. Better let me come to Earth for me to decide first," would anybody really trust him? No, because he's freaking Galactus.

@Morpheus_: Has the Phoenix ever showed any sign of, Idk the right word.... kindness? understanding? intelligence? Because I really have no idea why Cyclops feels the need to risk everything for the slightest chance of this working out.

Also, Wolverine's being an idiot too. He knows Hope is connected to the Phoenix Force too, and he thinks killing her's gonna work? Does he not know what Phoenixes do? Rise from the ashes? If he does it, PF's just gonna get angrier, ensuring the destruction of everything.

@Morpheus_: Understood, but that's still a pretty big "if," you know?

Cap is right as far as I see it, and Cyke is being an asshole.