Six Developments About Jason Todd from RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #0

I like the red mask Jason has. Gives him a unique look.

In that last picture... Is that pipe... Jutting right out of his tooth?

@venomyak said:

I like the red mask Jason has. Gives him a unique look.

Same thing here.

Who is the artist on this issue? I recognize it. (The artist in the first 3 images) I feel like he did the Superboy comic a long time ago? It looks good.

@JonSmith said:

In that last picture... Is that pipe... Jutting right out of his tooth?

I think so? And i'm confused about how he's holding the paper with his palm?

That whole Joker thing was a bit odd, I wasn't sure how to take it, but I guess we'll probably see how it all unfolds when the two meet in "Death of the Family" as pointed out above. It still left me thinking that'd much rather have seen more time with Bruce and Jason than the pages soaked up by the Joker, whatever it's intent and purpose was.

I'm confused by the back up. Is the Joker implying he knows that Bruce is Batman and who each bat family member is? He basically said out right that he actively created a Robin, and had been watching him for a long time. It wouldn't be a tough leap to realize who Batman is if you're watching his ward.

@thegreatpaulio said:

I'm confused by the back up. Is the Joker implying he knows that Bruce is Batman and who each bat family member is? He basically said out right that he actively created a Robin, and had been watching him for a long time. It wouldn't be a tough leap to realize who Batman is if you're watching his ward.

This. That's why I wasn't sure what to think of it, it seemed to heavily imply the Joker knew exactly who Batman was. Which obviously is kind of...shocking.

i like the joker back up. I like the idea that he knows Leslie's connection to Batman. That he watches her and helps her and respects her. It covers the "your mom was dead but now shes not and shes the reason for your death" angle. And it suggests that he has the self control to leave her be so that he can use her ...as he does with Jason.

as for the idea that he should have figured out who Batman is based off of this: i think Joker CANT see who Batman is, much like Lex Luthor cant realize Clark is Superman. Somewhere in his self conscious, he probably knows. But he has romanticized Batman to be such an amazing creature that Bruce Wayne isnt even exciting enough. In his mind i bet he imagines Batman to be more liek Rorschach. Walking the streets every day undetected, and he probably believes that Batman targets children of great loss to be Robins and sneaks them away from home, even if they live someplace like Wayne Manor.

loved this issue. Cant wait for the full Tim Drake story.

@Mbecks14 said:

@JonSmith said:

In that last picture... Is that pipe... Jutting right out of his tooth?

I think so? And i'm confused about how he's holding the paper with his palm?

It is a bubble pipe. its supposed to be in the right side of his mouth. and hes holding the paper with his right hand, and sort of gesturing to it with his left.

@mpierce2690 said:

@thegreatpaulio said:

I'm confused by the back up. Is the Joker implying he knows that Bruce is Batman and who each bat family member is? He basically said out right that he actively created a Robin, and had been watching him for a long time. It wouldn't be a tough leap to realize who Batman is if you're watching his ward.

This. That's why I wasn't sure what to think of it, it seemed to heavily imply the Joker knew exactly who Batman was. Which obviously is kind of...shocking.

He made it clear he didn't want to know any names. I always questioned whether or not Joker heard Jezebel Jet calling out Bruce during RIP. Joker simply doesn't want to know or care who Batman is. Batman is who he wants to play with. Knowing who he was under the mask would spoil it.

It's funny how the major change from the back up is at the end it's like, "Jason's dad died in jail, Leslie Thompkins was there that was...you know pretty cool....Batman has bat shaped hand cuffs. Oh and Joker created Jason from scratch"

im not much of a DC guy, no offense to the comic chain just grew up with Marvel and can't afford alot of comics lol but i did pick up Red Hood when the new 52 released (mainly cause lobdell was big X men writer back in the day GO GEN X!!) and i really really enjoyed it. I havent gotten the zero issue yet but im super excited about it now ;D

Yeah...

I know Lobdell likes to make things up as he goes, but the implication is heavy here that the Joker knows all of the bat identities. And while I understand the argument that playing with "Bats" is more fun than playing with "Bruce," it wouldn't stop the Joker from hitting Bruce where it hurts, like Alfred, or Wayne Enterprises/Foundation, etc. I really don't think the Joker is like, "Oh, you don't have your cowl on? Well, you're safe for now..."

I just don't think he would sit on this information and ONLY use it to screw with Jason.

@G-Man said:

@mpierce2690 said:

@thegreatpaulio said:

I'm confused by the back up. Is the Joker implying he knows that Bruce is Batman and who each bat family member is? He basically said out right that he actively created a Robin, and had been watching him for a long time. It wouldn't be a tough leap to realize who Batman is if you're watching his ward.

This. That's why I wasn't sure what to think of it, it seemed to heavily imply the Joker knew exactly who Batman was. Which obviously is kind of...shocking.

He made it clear he didn't want to know any names. I always questioned whether or not Joker heard Jezebel Jet calling out Bruce during RIP. Joker simply doesn't want to know or care who Batman is. Batman is who he wants to play with. Knowing who he was under the mask would spoil it.

Isn't it made pretty clear (or at least implied rather heavily) that the Joker knows who Batman is in Batman and Robin when he is masquerading as Oberon Sexton? Dick and Damian both ask straight up ask him if he's Bruce. I guess they never refer to Bruce as Batman, but still... I got the impression that he knew, but didn't care. Bruce was the mask and Batman was the man and he knew it. I had no interest in who Batman was pretending to be, only in Batman himself.

@mpierce2690 said:

@thegreatpaulio said:

I'm confused by the back up. Is the Joker implying he knows that Bruce is Batman and who each bat family member is? He basically said out right that he actively created a Robin, and had been watching him for a long time. It wouldn't be a tough leap to realize who Batman is if you're watching his ward.

This. That's why I wasn't sure what to think of it, it seemed to heavily imply the Joker knew exactly who Batman was. Which obviously is kind of...shocking.

He made it clear he didn't want to know any names. I always questioned whether or not Joker heard Jezebel Jet calling out Bruce during RIP. Joker simply doesn't want to know or care who Batman is. Batman is who he wants to play with. Knowing who he was under the mask would spoil it.

Joker knows exactly who Batman is. Batman is Batman. Bruce is the mask!

Does that mean that the joker knew that Barbara was Batgirl when he shot her?

I really like Jason's character in the New 52, I just wish Red Hood and the Outlaws were written better...

@johnsry: ur scaring me man

isn't there a story out there where the Joker found out Bruce was Batman and turned sane? maybe he just doesn't want to know, we see people in the light that we want to see them, if he knew who Batman really was, he probably wouldn't have so much fun in life

I hated the Joker part of the story

It was hinted in "Death in the Family" that Joker knows. It is what it is, if anything it just integrates Joker and Jason together even more

@G-Man said:

@mpierce2690 said:

@thegreatpaulio said:

I'm confused by the back up. Is the Joker implying he knows that Bruce is Batman and who each bat family member is? He basically said out right that he actively created a Robin, and had been watching him for a long time. It wouldn't be a tough leap to realize who Batman is if you're watching his ward.

This. That's why I wasn't sure what to think of it, it seemed to heavily imply the Joker knew exactly who Batman was. Which obviously is kind of...shocking.

He made it clear he didn't want to know any names. I always questioned whether or not Joker heard Jezebel Jet calling out Bruce during RIP. Joker simply doesn't want to know or care who Batman is. Batman is who he wants to play with. Knowing who he was under the mask would spoil it.

I've always believed this about Joker. He's smart, creating his own Robin for what seems like just the heck of it, so I bet if he WANTED to know who Batman was he would have figured out how to find out by now. What I'd like to know is when Jason came back did he beat up the Joker with the crowbar like the joker did to him? I felt that gave more bad blood between the two.

Its been hinted numerous times throughout the years that Joker knows Batman is Bruce Wayne. Putting all of those aside, he pretty much has to have realized it after Batman RIP. If I remember correctly, Bruce unmasked himself and the Joker was right there along with the Black Glove members. Though for this to happen so early in Bruce's career...

However that doesn't mean I don't think this is incredibly convoluted and hard to swallow. To accomplish this he has to know who Bruce is. There's no other way around it. So I can believe he'd try to set this up, though I find it very very very unlikely that this plan would've worked (Really, what are the chances that a random orphan was going to become Robin? The number of lucky breaks that would need to happen, and of course did happen, for this to come off is astounding.) I can believe he'd build someone up for Batman to care about, just to take him away, because it'd be funny to him. That I can see, I just don't think it'd all come together as it did. I also cannot believe Joker wouldn't mess with Bruce outside of the costume. Maybe he wouldn't attack Bruce, but he'd definitely attack Alfred, Wayne Enterprises, etc.

I liked this issue. I liked the Joker part. It put a little more wondering on if the Joker knows who Batman is, and I bet this new Joker story running thru all the titles lets this be known. Looks like a little bit of a set up. Hmmmm?

@daredevil21134 said:

I hated the Joker part of the story

This.

Also, these zero issues are making me wish for full story arcs instead of single issues.

@daredevil21134 said:

I hated the Joker part of the story

Yeah i didnt like it either. The art was bad and everything was too cluttered. It was a cool concept though.

I liked this overall, but Dicks story was better

The Joker part was stupid but it was a good book overall.

Yes! I love Red Hood!

The first meeting with Batman's an issue I'm particularly fond of, because I liked the old explanation that it had to do with Jason trying to jack the Batmobile. More or less the story stays the same here except he's stealing something else when the Dark Knight comes across him. As for Joker making him Robin, eh...not too wild on that really.

I don't get why Joker wouldn't want to know who Batman is it would bring up new ways to fuck with Batman/Bruce

In the same way that the Jokers The Killing Joke origin was left ambiguous as to whether it was true or just some random story the he told to make a point, I keep thinking(hoping) that the whole Joker story isn't actually true. With that in mind, I have the same problem with this issue 0 that i had with Batman and Robin 0, there really isn't anything new (other than the Joker story which i am stubbornly refusing to believe) and in that way I found it rather boring. The big drawing point for me was the "Learn how Jason Todd came back to life after being killed by The Joker." on the solicitation. Between Superboy-Prime punching reality or the al Ghuls and there Lazarus pits I was excited to see a concrete answer to how he was resurrected with some good reasoning behind it, but all we got was a half-baked origin story and then. . .um. . . oh ya it was a Lazarus pit. Just felt very much like an afterthought.

As for whether or not the Joker knows who Batman is, I don't see it as a does he or does he not know situation, it's that he shouldn't or at least we shouldn't know he know. It makes for a more interesting character, that he sees Batman as his plaything and like a child with his toy isn't upset to find out how it works and isn't upset when he doesn't. He's completely indifferent. That toy is it's favorite and that's that. We can debate on it all we want but the point of the Joker is that he defies classifications, that we can't get inside his head and completely understand his motives. Joker either doesn't know because he chooses not to or he does know and just doesn't act upon the knowledge because he doesn't want to.

It would've been kind of cool if Jason thought about stealing the tires. A little nod to the past.

@TheGraySon said:

I liked this overall, but Dicks story was better

It's true.

One of my Scott Lobdell apologist friends lent me this issue thinking it would make me hate him & Jason Todd less. Let's just get it out of the way that the backup story was one of the top 5 worst things ever published by the as part of the new52.

While the main story wasn't terrible, it was pretty flawed. Some of that was the time crunch, some of it was the decision to include the horrible backup story and have the main story truncated. If the main story was longer, you could write it properly… perhaps with a more modern panel layout than 4 panels stacked vertically, especially wasting so many of them on all black backgrounds with white text. Which brings me to the big problem: I think Lobdell knows how to tell a story, but he just doesn't get characters. He's not good with pacing, and part of that is because he doesn't understand things like motivation.

It's absolutely insane to suggest Bruce would let Jason take up the mantle of Robin given what we saw in the issue. Robins all need a purpose for taking up the mantle: a desire for justice in Dick; a dedication keep Batman from falling into his own darkness for Tim; and for Jason it was to prove to the world and to himself that he wasn't all bad, that despite his crappy parents and upbringing on the streets he didn't need to be a thug or crook. I've hated Jason Todd since his return in every story I've read aside from Under the Hood, because they don't show him as a complex, tragic character, they try and make him a tough guy teetering on the edge of good and evil, and sanity and insanity. Instead of 2 panels of Alfred looking perturbed, and Bruce lecturing Jason, we needed a page or 2 with Bruce talking to Jason asking him where he sees his life taking him. Or if that was too similar to the treatment Dick got in Nightwing #0, have him get that question from Batman when he gests busted. Or maybe after he has to "protect his mom" from her dealers, one of them presses charges for assault and he gets sentenced to a "scared straight" program where a some henchmen or minor villain like Cluemaster tries to intimidate him and says "this is the life you have to look forward to" and Jason lashes out saying "I'm nothing like you!" and beats the crap out of him.

The point is I don't want to sound like an out and out hater, because there are literally dozens of ways to tell the story Lobdell wants to tell, from the character's perspective like he tried to do… it just can't be done by Lobdell because he sucks.

#FireLobdell.

i liked it, it was better than superboy prime punching reality.

. It showed that somehow Jason had the prowess to bypass whatever security measures were in place (always something of a stretch)

Really? But a Billionaire Playboy who secretly dresses up as a Bat, has gadgets like James Bond, plus having No One in the Government/Military/Police Force try to figure out or are incapable of figuring it out his identity; and he fights Giant Alligators, A guy whos older than language, and a guy who dresses up as a clown that can't feel pain is BELIEVABLE?

*sigh* Humans

( + )

@Fantasgasmic: Thank you!

Yeesh, already a year into the new 52.

@Ett said:

Does that mean that the joker knew that Barbara was Batgirl when he shot her?

I think that's my hang up. It's like Commissioner Gordon, by now he has to have an idea of who Batman is, if not know outright. However, if he knew that Barbara was Batgirl when he shot her that makes that whole event less somehow. I can't explain it well. It was a powerful event. The Joker went after her, because she was the Gordon's daughter. That was very compelling. If he did that and knew then it's like taking two bats with one stone. It makes that event feel a lot weirder to me. Sorry I can't explain it well. Everything else works for me and could actually be a lot more compelling. It's just weird.

read it , still doesn't change my opinion that he is lame.

So does Joker know Batman's secret identity ? Since you know he has been following lil Robin Todd ?

I was really hating the entire nu 52 premise. The only way to keep reading was just to accept that the change sucked, but hope that things would smooth over. However, issues like this are finally grabbing my full attention again, and my faith in DC is starting to slowly be restored. I could nerd out and complain about why the Joker plotting to create his own Robin isn't true to their characters and motivations, blah, blah... I give in. It's fun and interesting. I love the nods to the classic Death in the Family panels, and I'm ready to jump aboard and see where this goes next.

I am beyond pissed. (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

DC...I thought it was impossible for you to ruin Jason for me...I liked him so much...really speechless right now.

One of the first things that made me like him was his bat-tire heist.

@Yung ANcient One: Dude its a comic. If you can't buy that premise then why are you even here?

I can't wait for jason and the joker to meet again, I'm so anxious to see what he'll do!!!

@Ett said:

Does that mean that the joker knew that Barbara was Batgirl when he shot her?

If Joker knows about Bruce/Batman, it's a safe bet he knows about Barbara. However, when he shot her, I don't believe Joker actually had it in mind to take down one of the Bat Family. He was squarely set on torturing Commissioner Gordon (who was still unaware of his daughter's extra-curricular activities). Crippling and humiliating Batgirl was just (to Joker) a fortunate side-punchline to the main joke.

@kid Apollo said:

isn't there a story out there where the Joker found out Bruce was Batman and turned sane? maybe he just doesn't want to know, we see people in the light that we want to see them, if he knew who Batman really was, he probably wouldn't have so much fun in life

Other than Hush, no other villain (that I can think of at the moment) seems to know about Bruce/Batman. So, if Joker does know, he's in on the ultimate "private joke". I think he'd take oodles of joy in knowing something like that.

@Mbecks14: Multiple artists worked on this one, I'm not sure who are which other than that Bret Booth (Teen Titans) did the Joker part. The others are Pasqual Ferry and Ig Iguara

@Cape_of_Steel said:

@Mbecks14: Multiple artists worked on this one, The others are Pasqual Ferry and Ig Iguara

Thanks!!

@Mbecks14: It was nothing. Quite literally, all I did was look to my right haha.

@TheMadMonkey said:

@kid Apollo said:

isn't there a story out there where the Joker found out Bruce was Batman and turned sane? maybe he just doesn't want to know, we see people in the light that we want to see them, if he knew who Batman really was, he probably wouldn't have so much fun in life

Other than Hush, no other villain (that I can think of at the moment) seems to know about Bruce/Batman. So, if Joker does know, he's in on the ultimate "private joke". I think he'd take oodles of joy in knowing something like that.

Ra's Al Ghul, the Riddler. On the topic in general, I agree with those who believe he simply does not care to know. Joker has no identity, I wouldn't be surprised if he's even made himself forget his real name, so why should he care who Batman is during the hum-drum day to day? He's already proven there are enough companions to use against him as Batman. I wouldn't say Joker's assumption that Batman would pick up Jason from the street means he knows his identity. I think he just uses the fact that he made the first "Boy Blunder" his sidekick as evidence of a sort of compassion toward troubled youth. So he simply manipulated Todd's life and cast him in the path of Batman so he'd take him in. It's not like he orchestrated a traumatic event to occur in the presence of Bruce Wayne, as it would have been if they for some reason decided to claim he manipulated Dick Grayson into becoming Robin.